Anyone have any info on pay in the RKKA in the GPW? Were they paid? Did they have Pay parades?

Reason I ask, is that I found this site which has very nice scans of 1938 dated 3 & 5 rouble notes.

http://aes.iupui.edu/rwise/countries/russia_regular.html

If we knew the size of the bank note these could be downloaded and printed out. The designs are really nice with a pilot and RKKA soldier on them. The site does not have any wartime dated notes, but does have some 1947 issues which we could use for our Berlin Airlift scenario in September.

If someone would like to do some research on this and get the printer going, they would make very nice pocket fillers.

Cheers, Ade.

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http://www.2ndguards.com/index.html

Adrian Borisovitch Stepanov
Guards Starshina
Unit 2 I/C

I have an actual 5-Rouble 'Aviator' note, it measures 140mm by 70mm. I think the 1-Rouble is slightly smaller.

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Radu Raduvich Himea
Yefreytor
Captain's Orderly

http://www.2ndguards.com/index.html


DEATHSPOON

Thanks Rob!

Cheers, Ade.

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http://www.2ndguards.com/index.html

Adrian Borisovitch Stepanov
Guards Starshina
Unit 2 I/C

I have a 1 rouble note- its about 40mm by 120mm and has a picture of a film camera man on it dated 1937.

It wouldnt go very far though- 1 rouble wouldnt buy match box.

The rates of pay were at the 1000-3000 rouble level (I assume per year- the book didnt specify) for enlisted men, dependant on rank, with 50% extra for Guardsmen, tankers etc- Bessanov said that he got 900r a month as a lieutenant, and that a bottle of vodka cost 1200r.

If the above figures are annual, then a guards sergeant would get 383r & 33kopeks per month.

Anyone else?

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Loosing your looks? Drink Vodka- it is much cheaper than Botox, & paralyses more muscles!

Kolya (Nikolai) Chuvashkin
Rank: Guards Mladshiy Serzhant

1200 roubles a year seems too small a number, even for a command economy where there is no market mechanisms at work.
Vassily Grossman wrote that he went to work for Red Star , he was given the rank of quartermaster and paid 1200 roubles a month. Everyone working for the paper had to be serving soldiers
You need the average industrial and office workers salaries to make a comparison against Army pay.
UPDATE (from US Military Manual dated 1946):
Pay scales ranged from that of the private 600 roubles a year to that of a General of the Army, which was 60,000 rubles per year. The equivalent of a private first class received 1,000 rubles per year; a corporal, 2,000 rubles; a sergeant, 3,000 rubles; a first sergeant, 4,200 rubles. The discrepancy between officer and enlisted pay is great. A first lieutenant received 12.5 times the pay of a private, or 7,700 rubles per year.

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8./Kompanie Infanterie-Regiment Gro�deutschland (mot)
" Regimenter sterben zehnmahl, aber es bleibt....das Regiment."

Interesting discussion!

Just found this:

Quote:

In 1936, a minimum wage law was adopted, fixing a floor of 300-350 rubles per month in urban areas and 270 rubles in the country. The measure particularly benefited the appallingly underpaid groups of auxiliary personnel (janitors, cleaners, messengers, etc.) and the lowest grades of shop assistants, railroad workers, and others

I would assume private soldiers probably fall into this category too... they tend to in Western Society thats for sure!

By 1963 the minimum wage had risen to 400R per month, so I would extrapolate that wartime pay could be not far off the 1936 figure...

BTW, a 1950's figure showed that it cost typically 466R per month to feed a person adequately!! Ok, so a soldier probably doesn't have to pay for his food, but it looks very likely that his money would go completely home to feed his family!!

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"Lenin left us a great legacy, and we have f*cked it up." I.V. Stalin, June 29, 1941

I have a feeling that soldiers were not paid directly, but the pay went directly to their family. I can't remember where I read this, and it does not take into account soldiers without immediate family, or with family in occupied areas

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Guards Serjant Yevgeni Trubetskoi 2nd Gds rifle div

As far as I understand there were definitley deductions paid to familly members, but I don't think it was all of the wages- I think that there were various options (I dont know how 'optional' they were though). There were equivalents to the NAFFI & PX stores where troops could spend their money - toiletries- snacks- razor blades- and so on were available at rear areas, and there is little point providing shops and no money.

For the gallant RKKA fighting woman there was a move to provide mobile ladies facilities, offering hair dressing etc- but this didnt pass the 'laugh test'.

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Loosing your looks? Drink Vodka- it is much cheaper than Botox, & paralyses more muscles!

Kolya (Nikolai) Chuvashkin
Rank: Guards Mladshiy Serzhant

Privet commades, interesting topic! I maybe able to lay my hands on some of these, if so, then I could work on running off some copies on the printer Anyway, I was led to believe that the ordinary soldat was not paid during the war years. They fought for the patriotic defence of the Motherland. Perhaps this ties in with the term of 'Patriotic War'? Though I am happy to be corrected on any such rumours that fall my way.

I'm honestly not sure really.

None of the (somewhat limited) personal accounts talk of pay parades or PX's or even gambling or theft...

I'm sure Bair could find the answer to the "were private soldiers paid" question and maybe even if the money was paid in the field or sent to a nominated recipient (wife/family)

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"Lenin left us a great legacy, and we have f*cked it up." I.V. Stalin, June 29, 1941

I remember that Dmitri Loza mentioned carrying the pay chest of his regiment with his headquarters during the Vienna operation in 1945. That would kind of imply that they were anticipating paying their soldiers.
Further, one of the Pen and Sword series, I forget which, mentions that one of a Comissar/Zampolit's duties was to run a savings club for his men, which again suggests payment in the field.

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Radu Raduvich Himea
Yefreytor
Captain's Orderly

http://www.2ndguards.com/index.html


DEATHSPOON

Ok, thats good stuff to add to the discussion Rob!

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"Lenin left us a great legacy, and we have f*cked it up." I.V. Stalin, June 29, 1941

Right Rob, or could be they were anticipating having to pay for something but not necessarily their soldiers! Not forgetting how many hadn't eaten for days, and as related by one lady tankist and her close friend who hadn't eaten for two weeks. OK if you want to be on a crash diet I suppose. A pocket full of cash would be pointless anyway if you cant get anything with it, except to eat that in desperation! All living things can be pretty resourceful when it comes to self preservation and survival.

And further to my previous reply, I've managed to get some vintage roubles from a very nice man in Poland, so should be here soon

Those of you with a copy of Bessanov's 'Tank Rider', please see page 30 paragraph one.

He states that as a junior liuetenant (non Guards at that time) he was paid 600 R a month . Tax deduction was at 50 R and he was 'paid in cash'.

He complained that his battalion had no shop (earlier in the book the camp that he was trained at had both a shop & post office) & the civilian rationing system presented problems buying stuff off-base.

Later on in the book he comments about married soldiers having deductions paid to wives (when I find the page number i shall post it).

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Loosing your looks? Drink Vodka- it is much cheaper than Botox, & paralyses more muscles!

Kolya (Nikolai) Chuvashkin
Rank: Guards Mladshiy Serzhant

Without fishing the book out... surely that refers to his training period behind the lines and in the Soviet Union still... not at the front?

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"Lenin left us a great legacy, and we have f*cked it up." I.V. Stalin, June 29, 1941

He was in reserve at the time, & had nowhere to spend this money. When he was in training they did have access to a shop and a post office as mentioned above.

I doubt that a regiment on the offensive would have pay parades, but as soon as the unit went on the defensive, or soldiers went into the reserve, I imagine that they would get paid. Think of the morale repercussions.

All the soldiers had pay books- the pay owed would be logged at perscribed times, & then the pay book used to draw from the Pay Chest when appropriate.

Fines were a standard form of discipline that could be meted out by platoon leaders. If you dont pay 'em, you cant fine 'em.

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Loosing your looks? Drink Vodka- it is much cheaper than Botox, & paralyses more muscles!

Kolya (Nikolai) Chuvashkin
Rank: Guards Mladshiy Serzhant

Ok, lets try looking at something comparable but more fathomable...

Did the British Army in mainland Western Europe in 1944 get issued cash payments?

I seem to remember something about invasion money? A sort of "single currency" which would be redeemable with the occupying allied forces at a later stage (though god only knows how an exchange rate was calculated - i say to french farmer "give you 10 invasion dollars for your chicken" and he has to work out on the spot what that is worth in francs? you wouldnt want to sell yourself short with a currency you have never seen?)

Coming back to our subject, how much time did RKKA soldiers spend out of the fighting once at the front? Its always something I've wondered - not sure they ever seem to have been pulled back for rest, just not actually been right at the forward edge of battle. No leave passes were issued were they? So with that in mind... what are you going to do with the money?

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"Lenin left us a great legacy, and we have f*cked it up." I.V. Stalin, June 29, 1941

With reference to your first point, Andy, I can answer in detail. The 'Invasion Franc' was issued to all Allied personnel operating in France and Belgium, and was brought out because due to German mismanagement the currencies in those countries had effectively ceased to have value. The Invasion currencies (I should add there were Invasion Guilders too, for Holland) were tied to the value of the dollar and could be used interchangably with US and British currency. Dollars, Pounds and barter were still preferred by people in the occupied territories, though.
My uncle was with the RAF in Northern France and his paybook shows that he was paid in both Invasion currency (up to November 1944) and Sterling after that. Possibly the Allied High Command saw the futility of issuing money that no one trusted.
He remembered having to negotiate price just about every time he bought something. It was just that chaotic at the time, in fact one of the duties of town administration was to set tabled prices for the area they governed and enforce them. It was a golden time to be a black marketeer.

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Radu Raduvich Himea
Yefreytor
Captain's Orderly

http://www.2ndguards.com/index.html


DEATHSPOON

Ok, so thats a sort of insight... thanks for explaining that aside Comrade!

What I can't seem to get into my mind is what a Soviet soldier would spend his money on in 1944-1945, even if he got some.

Also at the back of my mind is that would he even bother to spend money with the locals? The idea of a Red Army PX at the front isn't something I can imagine either...

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"Lenin left us a great legacy, and we have f*cked it up." I.V. Stalin, June 29, 1941

There was supposd to be an equivalent of the PX/NAAFI- but with all things Soviet it is difficult to assess how widespread & well organised it would have been- Fraser talked to me about it once- maybe worth pm-ing him about it to get some literary references- I'll trawl through some more memoires & see if any refer to this.

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Loosing your looks? Drink Vodka- it is much cheaper than Botox, & paralyses more muscles!

Kolya (Nikolai) Chuvashkin
Rank: Guards Mladshiy Serzhant